Outraged: Fighting About Morality and Politics

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Mike talks with Kurt Gray, a Professor in Psychology and Neuroscience at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where he directs the Deepest Beliefs Lab and the Center for the Science of Moral Understanding. They talk about his recently released book, Outraged: Why We Fight About Morality and Politics and How to Find Common Ground.

Topics Mike and Kurt discuss include:
– what Jonathan Haidt gets wrong
– myths of human nature
– dehumanization and moral conflict
– social media as a Godzilla movie
– why people only want ‘their’ facts
– the importance of perceived harm
– how to connect, invite, and validate

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A Big Week for Pardons and Executive Orders

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Mike and Trey open with their thoughts on Donald Trump’s inauguration and inaugural address. Trey considers Trump’s rhetoric, while Mike points out the typical Trumpian exaggerations and compares the speech to Trump’s 2017 “American Carnage” address.

Then they turn to pardons. Mike is sympathetic to President Biden’s use of preemptive pardons for his family and officials subject to potential political prosecution, but Trey can’t get behind them because of the bad precedent they set. They both agree that President Trump’s pardons of essentially everyone involved in the January 6th Capitol insurrection are unconscionable and that President Trump should have at least made the effort to sort out those who committed violence from non-violent offenders.

They close with a look at President Trump’s many executive actions on immigration and birthright citizenship, an issue that Mike argues is clearly settled law. Trey disagrees, pointing to a number of legal scholars who argue for a different interpretation of the 14th Amendment that might potentially convince enough members of the Court to allow his order to stand.

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LA Fires, Trump Confirmation Hearings

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Jay and Justin open with a discussion of the political and practical challenges surrounding the LA fires, including the role of climate change, disaster preparedness, environmental regulation, and political blame games.

Then they turn to Trump nominee confirmation hearings, focusing on Pete Hegseth, Tulsi Gabbard, and RFK Jr.

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The Politics Guys is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

Fighting Forever Chemicals

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Mike talks with Justin Talbot Zorn, who has served as Legislative Director to three Members of Congress and is a Senior Adviser to the Center for Economic and Policy Research. In his policy and communications work, Justin specializes in climate, innovation, manufacturing, and economic competitiveness. In this conversation, Mike and Justin focus on PFAS ‘forever chemicals’ and environmental policy.

Topics Mike and Justin discuss include:
– why the US Air Force isn’t cleaning up water it contaminated with PFAS
– the military’s big PFAS problem
– costs and benefits of cleaning up PFAS in the water supply
– what to expect concerning PFAS regulation in the Trump administration
– plausible worst and best-case scenarios for the next four years

Justin’s article on Trump’s testicle shrinking deregulation.

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The Politics Guys is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

Trump’s Felony, Trump International Policy, Jack Smith Report

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Trey and Ken open their first episode of 2025 discussing Trump’s felony conviction. Next, they consider Trump’s comments on international foreign policy, specifically his aggressive stance on Canada, Greenland, and Panama. They finish the show by discussing special council Jack Smith’s report release and its court rulings thus far.

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The Politics Guys is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

Terror Attacks, Jimmy Carter, Healthcare, Working for Trump

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Mike and Jay open the first episode of 2025 with a discussion of the recent terror attacks in New Orleans and Las Vegas, followed by a look at the upcoming vote for Speaker of the House.

Next, they consider the life and legacy of President Jimmy Carter, looking at the awful situation Carter inherited from Ford, the thumping Carter took in losing to Reagan in 1980, and Carter’s long and impressive post-presidency.

After that, it’s a follow-up on their healthcare discussion from late last year. Mike points out that Jay was right (and Mike was wrong) about most Americans liking their health insurance. However, Mike has some issues with the question itself and makes the case that more specific questions about people’s experiences with healthcare, especially costs, paint a far less rosy picture.

They close by considering whether working for Donald Trump in his second administration is justifiable and, if so, under what conditions.

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The Politics Guys is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

America’s Censored Classrooms

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Mike talks with Jeremy Young, PEN America’s Freedom to Learn program director, about the recently released report, America’s Censored Classrooms, 2024.

Topics Mike & Jeremy Discuss Include:
– how big of a problem educational censorship is
– where it’s happening
– the deviousness of ‘stealth censorship’
– institutional neutrality and viewpoint diversity
– how universities are responding to censorship attempts
– what to expect from the incoming Trump administration

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The Politics Guys is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

United Healthcare CEO Murder, Birthright Citizenship

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Mike and Jay open with a discussion of the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. While they agree that Luigi Mangione’s actions were absolutely wrong, Mike makes the case for a more nuanced understanding of both Mangione and the people in charge at health insurance companies like United Healthcare. This leads to a broader discussion of American healthcare. Mike argues that the system is fundamentally flawed, whereas Jay believes that things aren’t nearly as bad as Mike makes them out to be.

Then it’s a look at one of Donald Trump’s many Day 1 promises: ending birthright citizenship. While that will be highly unlikely without a constitutional amendment, they consider what the incoming Trump administration could do to disincentivize immigrants from attempting to come to the US to give birth. Mike doesn’t even see this as a problem, but even if it is, he argues that there are far more important immigration issues to tackle. Jay makes the point that Democrats are often too focused on ‘root causes’ and that even minor disincentives to illegal immigration might be worth enacting.

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Hunter Biden’s Pardon, Hegseth, Transgender Rights and the Supreme Court

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Trey and Ken start with a look at the Hunter Biden pardon. Trey forcefully argues that it didn’t have to be a terrible move for President Biden. Still, because it involves lying and taking unnecessary shots at the Justice Department, it is wrong and bad for the Democratic Party. Ken argues that the pardon was not only necessary but justified. In Ken’s view, the primary problem is that the pardon did not cover enough people and, maybe due to mental decline, was not worded well.

Next is a discussion of Trump’s nominees with a special focus on Hegseth and Kennedy. They agree Hegseth is a bad nominee but have differing takes on what may happen next. Ken believes one possibility is that it is a flytrap: that is one bad nomination to take eyes off of other nominees.

They close with a look at the oral arguments for United States v. Skrmetti. Ken drills deep into the legal issues and the potential future for the case to return not under the 14th Amendment, but under a parental rights framework. Trey suggests that we live in a post-liberal world primarily concerned about good ends for people and not minimal liberal visions of justice.

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The Politics Guys is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.

Trump’s Trials, Trump’s Tariffs, DEI Rollback

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Mike and May open with a look at where the many legal cases against Donald Trump stand as Inauguration Day approaches. They agree that there won’t be any further action on them until Trump is out of office again, with May believing there’s much more of a chance of future Democratic administrations reopening them than Mike does.

Next is a discussion of the latest tariffs Donald Trump said he’d enact on day one: 25% on both Mexico and Canada as well as an additional 10% on China. Mike believes that Trump made these promises as the opening salvo in a negotiation and won’t end up following through. May argues that Trump has a real attachment to tariffs, and that he’s likely to stick with them even if they cause markets to drop and inflation to rise.

They close with Walmart’s recently announced DEI rollback, which is part of a larger corporate trend. Mike believes that thoughtfully administered awareness training can be valuable, but that it too easily becomes counterproductive hectoring.

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Listener support helps make The Politics Guys possible. You can support us or change your level of support at patreon.com/politicsguys or politicsguys.com/support. On Venmo we’re @PoliticsGuys.

The Politics Guys is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts that examines what’s broken in our democracy and how we can work together to fix it.